Club Rides

Rick, what you're saying is spot on. This behavior is not safe, and it's not fun. I really appreciate you for bringing this to the club in this way. I hope it will get folks' attention. I'm a paying member and have ridden and led numerous rides, but I'm reluctant to participate with posted rides anymore for exactly the reasons you describe. I would love to find a group to ride with, that shares an ethic of group cohesion, respect, friendliness, and safety-consciousness. I've rarely found it in BRBC so far. --Mary Ellen Griffin

I haven’t participated in any group rides since last fall. In part due to the time spent trying to recover from Hurricane Helene and also much of my time has been spent snow skiing during the winter. I will acknowledge there’s no training substitute for time spent in the saddle so I’m still in the process of getting bike fit. I did make a request early on, to start some “get fit” rides for those of us who have some catching up to do. That obviously didn’t happen. Mostly I’m doing solo rides because I’m not sure if there’s a group where I can fit in.

I do have concerns about large group rides. I would prefer splitting up into groups of four to six riders of the same fitness level, who understand how to ride in a pace line and know when it’s appropriate to ride single file. I know the legal rules of the road but I don’t like to hold up cars on narrow roads where it’s difficult to pass safely. I would much prefer for cyclists to pull over and stop in order to allow cars to pass, especially if we’re holding up a long line of cars. Large group rides where cyclists ride 2/3 abreast make it very difficult to allow cars to pass. I’ve also observed cyclists in large groups ride left of center in blind curves and blow through stop signs, mostly because they don’t want to get dropped. I’m thankful no one has gotten seriously injured. I’m thinking maybe BRBC should consider tweaking the group rides so every member feels like there’s a group appropriate to their skill level, and there’s a way to move up to stronger groups as they become more fit.

Kindest Regards,

Mike Charping

Thank you Rick Berlet for voicing what I have always wanted to say. I am a consistent B/B- rider who has pretty much stopped attending group rides since most rides seem turn into a race right out of the gate.

the last B- ride I attended 5 of us got caught at an intersection while the rest of the group took off never bothering to look back to see if they had everyone. If we don’t take care of each other especially new riders no new riders will join or participate.

Randy,

I'm not Dawn, but I'll try to help.

The A-D designation of rides has a very large MPH difference. If I post a B ride then someone(s) riding at the bottom of B pace might be 3-5 miles behind the ride leader and group who might be riding at the to of B pace. Then there's endurance rides. I posted a 70 mile ride at 15mph and sent it out to B and C riders because that MPH is pretty much at the top of C and bottom of B, many reached out and said that I should not have posted it as a C pace because the majority of C pace riders would not be able to keep up. I had 2 people show up and we completed the ride right at 15mph. The idea of Letters isn't helpful in an area like WNC becuse the terrain sets the pace some times. I have found recently that I am an A rider on flat land (Myrtle Beach). No way I could do that in these mountains. But I'm a pretty good B rider for a good 50 miles in a group.

So the Grid breaks things down further. Rather than saying this ride is going to be this MPH and hope that people can keep up if there's lots of elevation change, we look at the route and divide the elevation by the milage to come up with avg feet per mile. At that point I can look at past rides and calculate the same info, if I have similar MPH and Ft/mi then I can figure what level I ride at. The math that went into this is pretty accurate. I think based on some of the social rides I lead I was initially classified as a lever 3-4 rider, but when I ride at the pace I am comfortable with I am a level 2 rider.

Everyone knows that this will take a bit to get used to, but it will really help becuase I know of several rides I posted last year at a B-/C+ pace, no drop, that got several C- riders and after talking to them they didn't really read the description that I sent out, just assumed because they got it that it should be a C ride.

By that assumption, we had to wait a lot at re-group points, it wasn't as fun a ride for those who were going the pace that was expected. They had to wait for riders to catch up and then wait for them to catch their breath.

Hope that helps

I have had similar experiences to Rick Berlet. I excitedly joined the Club about four years ago. The group rides, I have found, just don't work well for me. Many for the same reasons Rick has mentioned. 

I have done self-supported tours of 400 to 2000 miles across the years. Now, I ride for exercise and to just see and contemplate the Nature in our beautiful area.

I support the club for how it contributes to bicycle riding in our region, but I don't need group socializing, kind of a introvert, or big group rides. I would love to find a couple of people to ride with who have similar interests. It helps me with motivation to have friends who I can call or will call me to ride. I know compatibility has to be worked out, but it can be done. Is there a way that the club could help with this?

I'm not that tech savvy, so I have no idea who this email is going out to, but I hope it will find someone that will be helpful. 

Dale Brotherton 

828 507 4584 

Strong ride leadership is often (but not always) needed to make group rides work as planned. Once the group and pace expectation is posted, the leader has to take action when called for. He, or she needs to tell any hot dogs to slow down or seek another ride. If the person has to be told twice, then they are asked not to join the group again. Obviously when there are sprint zones within the route (also indicated in the ride posting), then anyone can stretch their legs. And then regroup.

Group rides are what make cycling fun. But ride leaders with good leadership capabilities are needed.

On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 10:50 AM, Rainy Atherton

<rainy.atherton@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dawn would you mind explaining the 5 levels to a brand new rider? I've looked at the website but it's confusing. I'm slow, do I try a 5 or a 1?

It sends from the original post that some of the core group are doing secret rides that they are not posting, as a rule. That is the very reason I joined, to come ride with you guys. If this is really the bulk of rides then it really doesn't make sense to be a member for me. I joined a few days ago, so I don't know any of you guys and nobody's going to invite me personally yet.

What do you think about that? Are there still a lot of people Leading rides as public or Is this membership not really worth it? If there are activities, can you recommend a noob friendly ride leader? 

_________________________________

Rainy Atherton
Hendersonville NC

I lead level 7 & 8 rides. I am one of the few ride leaders that posts these slower rides. Since putting the new system into play, I have had very happy riders because they know exactly what they have signed up for and they don't have to worry about getting dropped or lost. I have had faster riders show up and they ALWAYS let me know that they are not going to push the pace. They are always there when we regroup. One rider was time pressured, so she let me know that she was riding off the front and made sure not to take any of the other riders with her.

I did have a much larger than expected group for one ride (that is another problem for another discussion) and we split up in the parking lot and let the faster group go out first. In other words, I have had nothing but respect from other riders.

I know that the problem of disregarding the designated pace is an issue on faster rides. Sounds like several people have posted their concerns. I hope ride leaders will take note and be reminded of their responsibility as a ride leader to ride at the posted pace.

For the most part I agree with Rick's sentiments, but I am not a fan of the way he basically rage quit: "People aren't doing what I like so I'm going to stop leading club rides." That's the whole point to the ride leaders meetings and the ride leaders forum, we should be discussing expectations and giving feedback.

I've had people come on rides I have posted at C+/B-, and when I do that I have tried to post that the avg mph is 15. Some people show up not able to do that. Maybe it is because they don't look at elevation, or consider the new route they have never done before, but with the new Grid, I think it allows for some unvoiced expectations to come into play, and that being, we can regroup if someone is going at the lower end of the level, but even on no drop rides, if you can't hold the level, you're dropped.

Ride leaders have nothing that is holding them to be safe or do things according to club guidelines (at this point picture Jack Sparrow "They're more like guidelines than actual rules"). I say burn the current system to the ground. Suspend ride leader privileges for all ride leaders who have not been to a Ride Leader Meeting in over 2-3 years. Hold a refresher course that talks about what is supposed to be covered before rides, the new pace grid and how to use it, and safety expectations. the biggest thing that worried me last year was when on two separate occasions, a rider, new to the club with int he last 4-6 months, told me they had gone on another ride and the leader and the rest of the group cleared a red light with a quick check left and right and did not slow down or stop for the red light. I am all for a safety stop or Idaho stop, but it is this behavior above all that motorists HATE. And on every bumper sticker and logo for the club I have seen says the mission of the club is to promote safe cycling in WNC. Ride leaders who do not do this should be addressed. having an email address that members can voice grievances would be helpful. If I continually lead rides 2-3 mph above the posted level, that's problematic. If I blow through stop signs and red lights, I should have my ride leader privileges taken away for a set amount of time. All club members should receive an email at least twice a year reminding them of their expectations on rides, as well as how Ride Leaders should be conducting rides.

I'm not all about negative consequences though. Right now I don't think some ride leaders are changing their behavior because they see no reason to. Incentivizing ride leaders with BRBC apparal, discounts at local shops for goods and services, or paid entry to a local event of their choosing might be enough, after my suggested Leader refresh, might be enough to encourage some leaders to start posting rides again, and get more people to step up leading rides.

David,

13-15 mph is a huge range, and especially in a mountainous area like WNC, is really dependent on the amount of climbing. Our fastest riders may do 15 mph on a very hilly route, our slowest riders nearly that on a flat route. The description of each ride on the calendar will give you the amount of climbing and the target pace. Take a look at

Choosing a BRBC Ride" under "Rides" on the website for the target pace grid as well as the description of the "character" of the rides at various levels.Check a few of your rides and see what level you seem to fit into and perhaps try a ride a level or two below to make sure. You can let me know if you have other questions.

Lew Insler

BRBC Ride Director

The new grid is a great effort and those who put their time and effort into it are to be commended.

I'd like to amplify Lew's comment that 13-15 mph is a huge range. I know we all tend to think in MPH but consider the following practical example:

Assume a flat road with good visibility. A rider traveling at 15 MPH will be, after 20 minutes, 3520 feet ahead of the rider traveling at 13 MPH (10 football fields). That's not a small amount. Now assume that the other person reaches the top of a hill before you and is traveling much faster on their descent while you are still climbing. It doesn't take long for this to be an even larger gap, with the lead person or persons out of sight. Rather quickly on these up and down twisty turning roads. And not all descents or descents are created equal, the gap can be extended on the descent.

Even with the new grid, which often has only a 1 MPH range, in a level 7 ride with 65 feet/mile, after 20 min the person riding at 12.6 MPH is 6 football fields ahead of the person at 11.6 MPH all things being equal. It's 80 feet per minute.

I think it's worth pausing and reflecting on the actual distances rather than more abstract "averages" that we all have on our bike computers when thinking about the practical aspects of riding with someone else or a group.

It also points out that, like it or not, in a group ride that intends to stay together it's more incumbent on the faster rides to ride more slowly to allow the slower riders to stay attached. That's just math.

An excellent point about the distance gaps, as they are far more understandable that the gaps in average pace over an entire ride.

Rory,

I think your points are good but one must consider the effects of wind and drafting. I think it is possible for someone to pull at 15mph and someone who has a 13 mph capability on flats to draft at 15mph. I think people have variable strengths in cycling whereas someone may be a weak climber but may be great going down hills (this may be purely muscle/mass ratio) and may easily catch the group again. Also, some may come from flat places (like me- from Louisiana) and may not climb well but can catch a group after a flat section or a descent. If faster riders are constantly waiting on slower riders (which you proposed) then it may not be a great ride for the faster riders and it might not provide any opportunities for slower riders to optimally ride their strengths and progress in their fitness. A good idea might be for slower riders (in your example the rider who holds 13mph vs the one who holds 15mph) to recognize that he will be a slower member of the group and should not be pulling and to conserve energy and for the group to discuss in advance areas to re-group ( say at the bottom of a hill). I think staying together is nice but it shouldn't not be at the expense of rider satisfaction of all members of the group (fast and slow) and that riders should be realistic in their choice of groups.

I've noticed several people asking for more details on how our rides are organized. While our ride leaders include even more details in their ride postings, we have recently updated our general guidance on Choosing a BRBC Ride. Take a look and see if this helps you find the ride for you.

Also, for any posted ride, you can always contact the Ride Leader with questions about the structure of the ride (route difficulty, group sizes, regrouping, rest stops, etc.).

Dawn Barr

This dialogue is very helpful. I am a member of the club but only do an occasional group ride for many of the reasons set forth in this chain. The problems described here are not unique to BRBC. I live in southwest Florida for most of the year where there is only flat terrain and the inconsiderate riders on club rides are doing 25+mph on a group ride meant to be much slower. No big deal because the worst that happens is you are still on flat terrain if you're dropped. Getting dropped on some rural mountain climb in western N.C. can be much worse.

That being said, I live in Black Mountain in July and August and would be interested in any group rides in this area as well as riding with any club members who are like minded. I am fine with a 14-16mph pace for 25-35 miles. I prefer to enjoy the spectacular scenery of this area and not stare at someone's butt in a pace line for the entire ride.

Please feel free to connect if you have any suggested rides or would like to join me this summer.

Lloyd Rosenberg

rosemackey@comcast.net

I don’t typically post comments on forums like this but I felt compelled to represent another view of the rides. Generally, I think the current setup works well. I appreciate the work that the ride leaders do and I don’t thank them enough.

When the ride levels were being developed, I shared my ride history with Lew during the data gathering process. My opinion is that the new ride classification grid is an improvement over the more general one used previously. But I still only consider it a guide, not an absolute rule.

After the grid was published, I went back to my ride history data set to try to understand what level of a rider I am. Several of my historical rides fell into Level 2, several in Level 3, a few in Level 4, and some outliers were even in Level 1. This review highlighted to me that I am NOT a one level rider, and I doubt anyone else is. On any given day, my physical and mental capability can vary from the previous day/week. This means to me that I do not know what level I can ride when I pull into the parking lot of a club ride.

The current club ride setup allows for that capability flexibility. If feeling good, I can hang with the lead group. If feeling fatigued, I can drop back to slower folks or even just go on my own. I don’t feel ‘disrespected’ by riders dropping me. I prefer that they go ahead as I don’t want to slow them down.

I understand and appreciate the desire to conduct a ride at a certain level, but with the elevation changes we have here, I believe that is a difficult thing to accomplish. How do I tell what speed I should be doing at mile 20 of a 45-mile ride? Are the climbs finished by that point or they yet to come? I typically ride at an effort level, not a speed level. Perhaps I’m not the norm.

When we have groups of 25-30 riders, the last thing we want is stay together for the entire ride, all riding at Level X. Car drivers would be furious. Ride levels are a practical solution to breaking the group up.

Great discussion! I also appreciate the leaders and think they are critical to the success of the ride. For example, I have been on many rides where the leader says something to the effect "I'm going x pace. If you want to go faster, go ahead, but you're on your own" or even explicitly breaks the group into 2 or 3 groups at the very start. I think this works well. As long as the leader sticks to the advertised pace, it doesn't bother me if others go off the front. I also agree that the flexibility of multiple groups is nice. I'm not the same rider every day.

Steve, Take a look at my response to David Raznick a few messages up about choosing a ride. In my experience (on Zwift) while indoor rides on a smart trainer are way better than on old "manual" trainers, and you can somewhat approximate the climbing; it's not the same as actually being on the road. So, as I said to him, figure out where you think you belong and then pick a ride a level or two below in order to get used to riding the hills.

Lew Insler

BRBC Ride Director

There is now a ride level calculator on the home page of the web site, upper left corner more or less.

Hi all,

I hesitated to add my two cents here, but my hope is that it may be helpful to others.

I joined the club about five and a half years ago. From the start I have had positive experiences on club rides that far outweigh the not so positive.

I don't feel a need to list out the specific reasons why the not so positive rides were the way they were. I will say the reasons were not just the ride leader's fault.

I feel we all have the responsibility on the group ride to be respectful not just with ride leader, but also to our fellow cyclists. We all have the responsibility to ride safely, and obey traffic laws, call out hazards, let fellow riders know you are passing, be aware of and courteous to the car or cars behind you, and have fun and engaging with the fellow cyclists. When a ride is posted, it is our responsibility (as well as a common courtesy) to register and not just show up. This allows the ride leader to make arrangements with others before the ride to split it up into smaller groups.

I am not a ride leader, but I have watched them closely as they have tried to herd butterflies. If there are cyclists that I haven't rode with before, I usually greet them prior to the start. I also make a point to keep an eye on them or ride with them at the start in addition to the ride leaders effort to do the same. It can be intimidating when riding with folks you haven't ridden with before.

In short, common courtesy goes a long way to making a ride fun and memorable.

See you out on the roads. Have a fun and safe Flyer too!

Linda

The chatter has quieted down a bit, but as the Ride Director for the Club I feel the need to speak to these issues. Rick sent the original letter that began this discussion. He was instrumental in getting the Board to focus on the question of "ride cohesion", which he re-framed as a question of rider respect in his open letter. It's really the same issue, just viewed from a different angle. Many of the responses support our thought that many members don't join group rides because of the culture of people coming on a ride and not adhering to the posted pace.

The new ride levels, eliminating the emails and getting ride leaders to "piggy back" multi-level rides on the same route have all been implemented in order to get more of our ride leaders to post more rides, with more detail, so that riders would know with more precision what to expect on a given ride. With more rides, there would be less reason or opportunity for people to come on rides that are not appropriate for them.

Changing a culture is not easy. The new protocols have been in place less than 3 months. Most of the feedback about the ride levels has been positive, but despite the changes we've made there is no doubt that some people are still coming on rides with no intention of riding at the posted pace. I hope some of you have read these posts and will think twice about continuing to do this.

For new members and those of you who aren't doing the group rides for the reasons noted, or for other reasons, I want to say two things. First, this is far from club-wide. It isn't really a a problem at the highest and lowest levels and exists mostly in the middle- levels 3,4 and 5. As I said, we hope the more clearly defined ride levels and making it easier to post rides by eliminating the need to send emails will help eliminate the problem by making more rides available.

Second, we have been trying for some time to get ride leaders to take action along these lines, with varying success. I hope that by seeing the effect it has (causing members not to join rides) they will make more of an effort to clarify what is expected on their rides.

Lew Insler, BRBC RIde Director

I just want to add my two cents as a Level1/2 rider. I do not necessarily see an issue if a group of faster riders go off the front and push their pace as 1) there are not many Level 1/2 rides and 2) if that pace is too strong/fast for the rest of the group, they do not have to chase. They can continue at the specified level pace which is fine. What would be wrong is if a Level 1/2 rider shows up for a Level 7/8 ride and just completely messes up that groups ride. It is not unusual for a group to split into two as someone here already talked about the speed spread. If say the spread is 15-17 mph, that can be quite a spread and if faster riders can go 17 and the rest 15, why can't the group split into two? The alternative is we need more Level 1/2 rides or the faster riders need to find another group to ride with in case why should they continue to be BRBC members. Once I get settled from our move here and new home finished I would like to become a ride leader so we can have more Level 1/2 rides.

Where I see problems on group rides is people riding erractically, more than 2 wide, not holding a line, attacking on every hill or pushing the pace uphill and then sitting up as they crest a hill vs slightly picking up the pace so riders don't stack up behind them. Not stopping at stop signs or being able to safely stop if a car is coming (saw some of that today). Continuing through a stop sign even though a car had stopped first and has the right of way (saw that today as well). If a driver waves us through, that's one thing, but if they were there first then they have the right of way. Running through red lights (saw that today as well). All of that gives bicyclists and the club a bad name.

Single file vs 2 wide. I think that depends on the road and how many riders are in the group. Maybe we need to pick a group size where it makes sense to ride 2 wide vs single file. If you have 20 riders in a group, is it safer for a vehicle to pass 10 riders (riding 2 wide) vs trying to pass 20 riders single file? Studies have found it to be the former and for example when I ride with Greg's group (Tempo Cyclism) we generally ride 2 wide due to the group size and guess what - Greg is a NC State Trooper, so if it was a bad idea or illegal, he would not allow it.

I feel this subject on group rides could use more discussion and feedback. Hopefully we can all come together to reach a consensus everyone is happy with and have a safer and more enjoyable group ride experience.

Marc,

All of these safety issues are important and bear discussing. The focus of our ride leader meetings is always on safety, and that should be the focus of each leader's pre-ride briefing.

However that is a separate issue from the discussion begun by Rick's letter- ride cohesion, or rider respect for the posted pace.At level 1 or 2, perhaps not a big problem. But, as you say, if there aren't many rides at that level and if those riders choose to come on a lower level ride, they need to be prepared to ride it at the posted level. As you can see from many of the posts, the culture of coming on any ride and riding it however one wishes discourages many people from coming on Club rides at all.That's why it isn't ok for a ride leader to just say "if you're off the front you're on your own." It perpetuates the culture and keeps people from joining group rides.

The ride description should say what is expected, as well as the briefing. Also, every ride description has a link to the "Rider's Responsibilities" page where it says, in bold, "Members should not come to a ride with the intention of riding either significantly faster or slower than the target pace."

I am thrilled that you are interested in becoming a ride leader. As you say, we could use more level 1 and 2 rides. But remember, there are far fewer riders in the Club capable of riding at that level, as well. It's a bell curve with the most riders in the middle, levels 3-5 or 3-6.

I hope to see you step up and join the "I Want to be a RIde Leader" Interest Group soon!

Lew Insler, BRBC Ride Director

Hi Lew,

I agree and disagree. If I join a Level 3/4 ride and there is a small group of faster riders, then why is it a problem if we go off the front at our pace? That should not have any affect on the main group as they can continue on at the specified pace without any issues. However, if I attend a Level 3/4 ride, like I did on Wednesday and I was really the only Level 1/2 rider, I rode at the prescribed pace. I even helped bridge one rider back to the group when he was left behind after making a wrong turn. I also went back to check on Linda after I found out she dropped her chain. She already had it fixed when I went back but the point is I did go back in case she needed help. If however there had been a small group of 3-5 faster riders, I expect we would have picked up the pace and went off the front. I just don't see that as an issue. I think we have bigger issues than a handful of faster riders going off the front. Maybe add Level 1/2 rides to a 3/4 and just have the 1/2's leave a couple of minutes beforehand?

Respectfully, Marc

In the situation Marc describes of a group wanting to "go off the front", if one of the folks who wanted to ride faster added their name to the calendar entry as a Level 1 or 2 ride leader for the same route, then all would be well. The effect is the same (or better, if a few more join), except that there is the courtesy of communicating in advance and making the fast group "official" with a Leader trained in safety and club practices.

Since that option is not always possible, I'm wondering if there is some middle ground where there is clear acknowledgement and communication with the posting ride leader, preferably in advance, but maybe also at the starting location, that a group is choosing to ride at a faster pace suitable to their capabilities. That way there are no surprises and people can join the group they are most compatible with. Seems to me the key is to allow for flexibility while showing consideration for the larger group and the club ethic. Posting at multiple levels with certified leaders is the ideal, but maybe there are alternatives when that cannot work for whatever reason?

Folks,

The problem with Ben's idea, and the whole mindset that it is ok to come on a ride that is not appropriate for your ability (usually too slow) and then go ride it at your own pace is, first, that no matter how it is communicated, it may not be acceptable to other riders who are there to do the posted pace, or maybe didn't "get the memo.". Second, it may not be ok with the Ride Leader. That's why the "Riders Responsibilities" page says clearly that this practice is improper. And that's the view on the ground.

Take the 10,000 foot view and as we have seen from other posts here, and from a lot of comments Rick received via email to his open letter before it was re-posted here; many members simply don't come on group rides because of this, and many ride leaders are reluctant and in some cases have stopped posting because of this practice.

Riders want to ride with people of their own ability and RLs want riders to join them at the level they posted. That's what I refer to as ride cohesion. Not accepting that is what Rick means by lack of respect.

While we may need more level 1-2 leaders, some of that is because a few of the leaders at that level are currently not posting, for a few reasons, and others travel quite a bit. But a few of the people who recently completed the RL training workshop are at that level, so I hope there will be more rides there. But's that's not the only place where it happens.

It is a practice, a culture, that needs to stop. As Tracey said in the post above, communication, courtesy and respect are needed on all rides.At the bottom of the Ride Leader Dashboard, which can be viewed by all members,is a video about the unwritten rules of cycling etiquette that Dawn found on You Tube. It's done tongue in cheek, but really makes great points. You know what the first one is? Don't go surging off the front and ruining the dynamics of the ride!! (Yes it says if they do, let them go, but his point, and ours, is that it just shouldn't happen.) The whole thing is worth watching, but that part is done within the first two minutes of a 10 minute video.Take a look.

Steve,

Glad you found cycling happiness here and please be cautious as there are still areas of surprises that could take you down. My prime riding area is Columbia SC but occasionally I get to ride around Saluda/Tryon/Tuxedo and last week while descending on CABIN CREEK Rd the pavement was suddenly not there and gravel was🤕. Oh my!

I am a member of two cycling clubs in the Raleigh area. Both offer rides at different levels but in all cases the rides are conducted in disciplined pace lines with riders taking turns on the front and rotating to the back. The protocol is enforced by ride leaders who generally allow for surging on hills with regrouping at the top. In my experience, this type of ride, which I think should be the goal of club rides, is the exception rather than the rule with BRBC. I have been on many club rides that wind up with riders all over the road and where a group that starts off with 10 or 12 breaks down into groups of 2 or 3. The problem is not just matching posted ride levels to rider levels. As Rick suggested at the outset, it’s a matter of club culture. I’m very grateful for all that BRBC does to promote cycling, design routes, and organize rides and I hope this conversation will lead to some improvements in ride management.

Ya'no, the riders' skill level is a bigger deal on a 4 mile climb and a bigger deal when the gradient gets above a certain percent for a variable distance. That difference and degree changes with every rider involved. I don't see it as a rider problem. On trips to the canary islands I had trouble keeping up going up a mtn going down a mtn most couldn't keep up with me. Things break down when either a ride leader doesn't immediately get control or if a rider comes from flat land where they can average 20+mph on a long ride and don't know how they will fit in on our roads. I've opted out of group rides for these reasons