Club Rides

Ya'no, the riders' skill level is a bigger deal on a 4 mile climb and a bigger deal when the gradient gets above a certain percent for a variable distance. That difference and degree changes with every rider involved. I don't see it as a rider problem. On trips to the canary islands I had trouble keeping up going up a mtn going down a mtn most couldn't keep up with me. Things break down when either a ride leader doesn't immediately get control or if a rider comes from flat land where they can average 20+mph on a long ride and don't know how they will fit in on our roads. I've opted out of group rides for these reasons

I am a member of two cycling clubs in the Raleigh area. Both offer rides at different levels but in all cases the rides are conducted in disciplined pace lines with riders taking turns on the front and rotating to the back. The protocol is enforced by ride leaders who generally allow for surging on hills with regrouping at the top. In my experience, this type of ride, which I think should be the goal of club rides, is the exception rather than the rule with BRBC. I have been on many club rides that wind up with riders all over the road and where a group that starts off with 10 or 12 breaks down into groups of 2 or 3. The problem is not just matching posted ride levels to rider levels. As Rick suggested at the outset, it’s a matter of club culture. I’m very grateful for all that BRBC does to promote cycling, design routes, and organize rides and I hope this conversation will lead to some improvements in ride management.

Steve,

Glad you found cycling happiness here and please be cautious as there are still areas of surprises that could take you down. My prime riding area is Columbia SC but occasionally I get to ride around Saluda/Tryon/Tuxedo and last week while descending on CABIN CREEK Rd the pavement was suddenly not there and gravel was🤕. Oh my!

Folks,

The problem with Ben's idea, and the whole mindset that it is ok to come on a ride that is not appropriate for your ability (usually too slow) and then go ride it at your own pace is, first, that no matter how it is communicated, it may not be acceptable to other riders who are there to do the posted pace, or maybe didn't "get the memo.". Second, it may not be ok with the Ride Leader. That's why the "Riders Responsibilities" page says clearly that this practice is improper. And that's the view on the ground.

Take the 10,000 foot view and as we have seen from other posts here, and from a lot of comments Rick received via email to his open letter before it was re-posted here; many members simply don't come on group rides because of this, and many ride leaders are reluctant and in some cases have stopped posting because of this practice.

Riders want to ride with people of their own ability and RLs want riders to join them at the level they posted. That's what I refer to as ride cohesion. Not accepting that is what Rick means by lack of respect.

While we may need more level 1-2 leaders, some of that is because a few of the leaders at that level are currently not posting, for a few reasons, and others travel quite a bit. But a few of the people who recently completed the RL training workshop are at that level, so I hope there will be more rides there. But's that's not the only place where it happens.

It is a practice, a culture, that needs to stop. As Tracey said in the post above, communication, courtesy and respect are needed on all rides.At the bottom of the Ride Leader Dashboard, which can be viewed by all members,is a video about the unwritten rules of cycling etiquette that Dawn found on You Tube. It's done tongue in cheek, but really makes great points. You know what the first one is? Don't go surging off the front and ruining the dynamics of the ride!! (Yes it says if they do, let them go, but his point, and ours, is that it just shouldn't happen.) The whole thing is worth watching, but that part is done within the first two minutes of a 10 minute video.Take a look.

In the situation Marc describes of a group wanting to "go off the front", if one of the folks who wanted to ride faster added their name to the calendar entry as a Level 1 or 2 ride leader for the same route, then all would be well. The effect is the same (or better, if a few more join), except that there is the courtesy of communicating in advance and making the fast group "official" with a Leader trained in safety and club practices.

Since that option is not always possible, I'm wondering if there is some middle ground where there is clear acknowledgement and communication with the posting ride leader, preferably in advance, but maybe also at the starting location, that a group is choosing to ride at a faster pace suitable to their capabilities. That way there are no surprises and people can join the group they are most compatible with. Seems to me the key is to allow for flexibility while showing consideration for the larger group and the club ethic. Posting at multiple levels with certified leaders is the ideal, but maybe there are alternatives when that cannot work for whatever reason?

Hi Lew,

I agree and disagree. If I join a Level 3/4 ride and there is a small group of faster riders, then why is it a problem if we go off the front at our pace? That should not have any affect on the main group as they can continue on at the specified pace without any issues. However, if I attend a Level 3/4 ride, like I did on Wednesday and I was really the only Level 1/2 rider, I rode at the prescribed pace. I even helped bridge one rider back to the group when he was left behind after making a wrong turn. I also went back to check on Linda after I found out she dropped her chain. She already had it fixed when I went back but the point is I did go back in case she needed help. If however there had been a small group of 3-5 faster riders, I expect we would have picked up the pace and went off the front. I just don't see that as an issue. I think we have bigger issues than a handful of faster riders going off the front. Maybe add Level 1/2 rides to a 3/4 and just have the 1/2's leave a couple of minutes beforehand?

Respectfully, Marc

Marc,

All of these safety issues are important and bear discussing. The focus of our ride leader meetings is always on safety, and that should be the focus of each leader's pre-ride briefing.

However that is a separate issue from the discussion begun by Rick's letter- ride cohesion, or rider respect for the posted pace.At level 1 or 2, perhaps not a big problem. But, as you say, if there aren't many rides at that level and if those riders choose to come on a lower level ride, they need to be prepared to ride it at the posted level. As you can see from many of the posts, the culture of coming on any ride and riding it however one wishes discourages many people from coming on Club rides at all.That's why it isn't ok for a ride leader to just say "if you're off the front you're on your own." It perpetuates the culture and keeps people from joining group rides.

The ride description should say what is expected, as well as the briefing. Also, every ride description has a link to the "Rider's Responsibilities" page where it says, in bold, "Members should not come to a ride with the intention of riding either significantly faster or slower than the target pace."

I am thrilled that you are interested in becoming a ride leader. As you say, we could use more level 1 and 2 rides. But remember, there are far fewer riders in the Club capable of riding at that level, as well. It's a bell curve with the most riders in the middle, levels 3-5 or 3-6.

I hope to see you step up and join the "I Want to be a RIde Leader" Interest Group soon!

Lew Insler, BRBC Ride Director

Rory,

I think your points are good but one must consider the effects of wind and drafting. I think it is possible for someone to pull at 15mph and someone who has a 13 mph capability on flats to draft at 15mph. I think people have variable strengths in cycling whereas someone may be a weak climber but may be great going down hills (this may be purely muscle/mass ratio) and may easily catch the group again. Also, some may come from flat places (like me- from Louisiana) and may not climb well but can catch a group after a flat section or a descent. If faster riders are constantly waiting on slower riders (which you proposed) then it may not be a great ride for the faster riders and it might not provide any opportunities for slower riders to optimally ride their strengths and progress in their fitness. A good idea might be for slower riders (in your example the rider who holds 13mph vs the one who holds 15mph) to recognize that he will be a slower member of the group and should not be pulling and to conserve energy and for the group to discuss in advance areas to re-group ( say at the bottom of a hill). I think staying together is nice but it shouldn't not be at the expense of rider satisfaction of all members of the group (fast and slow) and that riders should be realistic in their choice of groups.

There is now a ride level calculator on the home page of the web site, upper left corner more or less.

An excellent point about the distance gaps, as they are far more understandable that the gaps in average pace over an entire ride.

I just want to add my two cents as a Level1/2 rider. I do not necessarily see an issue if a group of faster riders go off the front and push their pace as 1) there are not many Level 1/2 rides and 2) if that pace is too strong/fast for the rest of the group, they do not have to chase. They can continue at the specified level pace which is fine. What would be wrong is if a Level 1/2 rider shows up for a Level 7/8 ride and just completely messes up that groups ride. It is not unusual for a group to split into two as someone here already talked about the speed spread. If say the spread is 15-17 mph, that can be quite a spread and if faster riders can go 17 and the rest 15, why can't the group split into two? The alternative is we need more Level 1/2 rides or the faster riders need to find another group to ride with in case why should they continue to be BRBC members. Once I get settled from our move here and new home finished I would like to become a ride leader so we can have more Level 1/2 rides.

Where I see problems on group rides is people riding erractically, more than 2 wide, not holding a line, attacking on every hill or pushing the pace uphill and then sitting up as they crest a hill vs slightly picking up the pace so riders don't stack up behind them. Not stopping at stop signs or being able to safely stop if a car is coming (saw some of that today). Continuing through a stop sign even though a car had stopped first and has the right of way (saw that today as well). If a driver waves us through, that's one thing, but if they were there first then they have the right of way. Running through red lights (saw that today as well). All of that gives bicyclists and the club a bad name.

Single file vs 2 wide. I think that depends on the road and how many riders are in the group. Maybe we need to pick a group size where it makes sense to ride 2 wide vs single file. If you have 20 riders in a group, is it safer for a vehicle to pass 10 riders (riding 2 wide) vs trying to pass 20 riders single file? Studies have found it to be the former and for example when I ride with Greg's group (Tempo Cyclism) we generally ride 2 wide due to the group size and guess what - Greg is a NC State Trooper, so if it was a bad idea or illegal, he would not allow it.

I feel this subject on group rides could use more discussion and feedback. Hopefully we can all come together to reach a consensus everyone is happy with and have a safer and more enjoyable group ride experience.

The new grid is a great effort and those who put their time and effort into it are to be commended.

I'd like to amplify Lew's comment that 13-15 mph is a huge range. I know we all tend to think in MPH but consider the following practical example:

Assume a flat road with good visibility. A rider traveling at 15 MPH will be, after 20 minutes, 3520 feet ahead of the rider traveling at 13 MPH (10 football fields). That's not a small amount. Now assume that the other person reaches the top of a hill before you and is traveling much faster on their descent while you are still climbing. It doesn't take long for this to be an even larger gap, with the lead person or persons out of sight. Rather quickly on these up and down twisty turning roads. And not all descents or descents are created equal, the gap can be extended on the descent.

Even with the new grid, which often has only a 1 MPH range, in a level 7 ride with 65 feet/mile, after 20 min the person riding at 12.6 MPH is 6 football fields ahead of the person at 11.6 MPH all things being equal. It's 80 feet per minute.

I think it's worth pausing and reflecting on the actual distances rather than more abstract "averages" that we all have on our bike computers when thinking about the practical aspects of riding with someone else or a group.

It also points out that, like it or not, in a group ride that intends to stay together it's more incumbent on the faster rides to ride more slowly to allow the slower riders to stay attached. That's just math.

The chatter has quieted down a bit, but as the Ride Director for the Club I feel the need to speak to these issues. Rick sent the original letter that began this discussion. He was instrumental in getting the Board to focus on the question of "ride cohesion", which he re-framed as a question of rider respect in his open letter. It's really the same issue, just viewed from a different angle. Many of the responses support our thought that many members don't join group rides because of the culture of people coming on a ride and not adhering to the posted pace.

The new ride levels, eliminating the emails and getting ride leaders to "piggy back" multi-level rides on the same route have all been implemented in order to get more of our ride leaders to post more rides, with more detail, so that riders would know with more precision what to expect on a given ride. With more rides, there would be less reason or opportunity for people to come on rides that are not appropriate for them.

Changing a culture is not easy. The new protocols have been in place less than 3 months. Most of the feedback about the ride levels has been positive, but despite the changes we've made there is no doubt that some people are still coming on rides with no intention of riding at the posted pace. I hope some of you have read these posts and will think twice about continuing to do this.

For new members and those of you who aren't doing the group rides for the reasons noted, or for other reasons, I want to say two things. First, this is far from club-wide. It isn't really a a problem at the highest and lowest levels and exists mostly in the middle- levels 3,4 and 5. As I said, we hope the more clearly defined ride levels and making it easier to post rides by eliminating the need to send emails will help eliminate the problem by making more rides available.

Second, we have been trying for some time to get ride leaders to take action along these lines, with varying success. I hope that by seeing the effect it has (causing members not to join rides) they will make more of an effort to clarify what is expected on their rides.

Lew Insler, BRBC RIde Director

Steve, Take a look at my response to David Raznick a few messages up about choosing a ride. In my experience (on Zwift) while indoor rides on a smart trainer are way better than on old "manual" trainers, and you can somewhat approximate the climbing; it's not the same as actually being on the road. So, as I said to him, figure out where you think you belong and then pick a ride a level or two below in order to get used to riding the hills.

Lew Insler

BRBC Ride Director